Sami Wehbe liked this post
This is my left cheek, now slap me again, i want to be sure i am not hallucinating: Patriarch Rai is requesting to separate the Religion from the state? from Qatar? in an expats dinner speech?
I mean how does he expect me to react: by applauding? Sorry I cannot.
Don’t take me wrong, although i am a firm believer in the secular state as the best solution for the country, but I cannot accept such statement, from that person, in these conditions.
First, it is a one-sided demagogue statement: I have heard such statements so many times before and the end result was always: “see i told you so, they, our compatriots from the muslim sub confessions, are not ready for that when i was…” Only to justify the secular system’s failure in Lebanon.
Second, because I did not hear such a statement as a result of a joint effort from all religions in Lebanon, prior to the marketing tour, I do not believe it.. and it will remain a political marketing balloon, which sadly will only result in more divisions, and a later ruling out of secularism.
I would have loved to hear the visionary secularist Patriarch step up and say, prior to coming to Doha: Today we have allowed the right of a civil marriage to our community and although we did it single-handedly to the Maronites, we think it is a pragmatic step for a true secular state where the religion left the state alone, and we invite our religious partners to step in with us. I bet you my daughters will most likely convert to become Maronites.
Better yet, i would have paid my seated diner ten times had he, before coming to Doha, stood up and said: today, and in order to be what we preach we are, we have worked and achieved with our compatriots a plan where we all agreed a rotational presidency, prime minister and chief of parliament, as a first step towards a non-confessional, secular state, where the individual is rated by his capacity and not his confession.
Now that would have commanded my respect.
But hey this is my right cheek again and slap me for a third time for me to wake up.
So till then Mr Demagogic Patriarch, spare us of your political ambitions as we have to much burden to handle already from Men in Black gambling with our socio-political life, and please do what you does best: pray for us sinners.
Dear Fadi
The above is based on the hypotheses that “The Patriach has political ambitions”. If so, you might have a point in what you mentioned, even if I personnally thing that it is a bit exagerated.
On the other hand, if really the patriarch doesn’t have political ambitions, who do you think better than him to start preparing his community on these ideas, who do you think better to tell politicians that the Church is ready for such decisions. No other “rajol deen” even said it. It can be the step that you are asking him about. If tomorrow other head of religions will say the same, what would stop Politicians to separate religions from state (if they want), step by step, starting by a unique personal conditions law, passing by a rotational presidency, ending with equal rights for all lebanese including nomination for presidency.
For a none Maronite like me, i prefer much better these speeches than to be on a politician list of payroll as a reward for my ” no comment” like the head of my range.
Kalam Moujtaza’.
Raai had made his vision clear on previous occasions. His vision is “separation of religion and state, but not separation of god and state”. Now guess who has the exclusive right to define and interpret what god says and want? This basically means that what you understood to be a call for secularism is actually a call for a religious state (a Xian version of the Islamic Republic), wrapped in fancy sexy appealing words and idioms, a la “separation of religion and state”.
I was mocked by a friend this morning, for having placed a “Like” on both George and Khattar’s comments above on my Facebook page, how could one like both?
Well, in my opinion, both viewed the issue from two different angles: George highlighted cautiously yet positively, the approach of our Patriarch, while Khater remained sceptical where to where he thinks it will lead. All three of us agree on the fact that there is an issue. And is what I liked.
See: Had we been able to hold him accountable, by voting “pro” or “anti” his actions, I would have gave the benefit of the doubt. Fact is I can’t, Fact is: I won’t.
Now talking about intentions: Clearly the matter of many societal issues remains in his sphere of control, at least with regards to the Maronites. So being God’s representative on earth, or should I say man’s Shepard towards the Heavens, in a Society that is torn by the politics of “taking”, I am hoping from him, to do as he preaches and be kind enough to grant his society, a gesture of “giving”, a gesture of Good Will, any pragmatic action toward his vision of secularism, thus leading by good example.
Is it to much to ask?
Because we will all hate the day people will take it away by force!
I fully agree with the blog. This sounds like the old Kenny Rogers song “looking for love in all the wrong places” and it seems that Pt. Raai is very good at it. I think Raai is looking for a place in the sun or rather in history, by defeating the “raison d’etre” of clerics whetever relgion they come from.
Fady, your argument shows an evolved man who knows how to think and take his decisions on the right path. Congratulations my friend!
I am not analyzing Raai’s position. I am merely reproducing what he said. He litteraly said we should not separate the state from god (whatever that means). He openly unambiguously and on several occasions criticized secularism as a western concept that we should stay away from because it is against our belief. So he is in no way endorsing secularism. the separation of state and religion he is talking about has a meaning that is different from the one given to it when used in the context of calling for a secular state. separation of state and religion, in his context, is an attempt to reconcile calls for a “modern” state with his view of government which in no way keeps him out of the political sphere.
Now, as a secular person, I do not agree with that, and find it a cheap attempt to “embellish” his vision and make it more appealing, more modern, more marketable, and more sellable. Basically, re-packaging the status quo without altering it in substance. This last paragraph you can say is my opinion.
bien analysé
here some of my articles on the same subject
i wrote them earlier…
http://www.lanationlibanaise.org/2008/11/la-marche-vers-la-laicite.html
http://www.lanationlibanaise.org/2011/09/ne-joue-pas-ce-jeu-bechara.html
Thank you guys for sharing your views on this blog. I hear all of you and our Pt. Raai talking about the separation of church and state. WOW we are in the SEA of and different globe , look around us guys what do we see? The Muslim brother hood is taking over all the nations around us to be governed by the ” Shareaa” which I am sure you understand what that means, RIGHT???? We are the only country in the region that have all the religions sharing power in the government and have a saying in what is good or bad for everyone in this country. Yes we have our problems due to the outside interference in our every day issues we deal with our brothers in this country.Let me ask one question: If we do separate the church from the state how long will it take to clear it from the minds of our young kids who have seen and heard what is going on with the killings and cleansing of the ” other side ” ??? What one hundred years or so?? May be. I will leave it here for you..
Hi Samir,
I do not agree with your feelings: we have been down the religious paranoia road for the past… 2000 years! and it would only lead to war. Yes what is happening next door is not something i would tend to agree with, but for once, for a change i would rather behave other than being scared of it. For once i think we, in lebanon, have a chance to take a lead and a step of courageous change…. As we have seen earlier in Beirut, opinion without aggressive means is good and healthy. http://www.nineteenzerofive.com/wp/salafists-from-here-baathists-from-there/
But in all cases, separation of state and religion, is not anti religion, but instead it is more human, and the only place where there might be a slight chance of really proving that respect is equal to all regardless of religion it would be here in Lebanon. That is why i think Rai’s speech is good, and i really would like to see it become reality with one first step, rather than words in the dust of our wishful thinking.
Hello Fadi
I want to thank you again for sharing your views which I am not far away from. I do respect the freedom of speech and the separation of religion and state. I did follow the speeches that was said in Beirut weeks ago. My friend what I am concerned about IS WE ARE ALWAYS THE ONES WHO OPEN THE DOORS FOR SOME THING NEW IN THIS BELOVED COUNTRY LEBANON, and what we get? another war yes CIVIL war that does not go away from our minds for all the sacrifices we paid, I am from Damour and you can look in the history book to know what we paid for that war. I say it again we open doors for a better life in Lebanon like the civil marriage or the new one of state and religion separation but it does stay a sound in the air of a SPRING STORM. I did not yet hear of anyone of our brothers in Lebanon carrying the PT. RAAI flag and supporting his new IDEA, which I hope there is . Keep your open mind which I respect and hope one day you and I will be carrying this issue in streets of every town in Lebanon. Stay in touch. SK.
Hi Samir,
I totally agree with the fact that we should never forget our gruesome past. Fact is I believe we should never forget that past, not because of the good things we have tried to do, but because of the wrong things we might have done and definitely lead us to such demise.
Practically I do not see any leader today capable of doing so while having to face any of my desperate cases: the warlords (all political leaders prior to 1990), that still have a tight clench to power. I hope my generation will out vote or out live them, without having to go through another of their wars.
Meanwhile, rather than speculating on who is stronger and who will win or why some things will not work, I’d rather keep blogging, and talking and lobbying for that tiny light of hope where even Nabih Berri will no longer be part of our political scene.
I’ll definitely stay in touch
منّي إلى كل من يستّر عن البطريرك الراعي و يرفض قول الحقيقة بوجه هذا البطريرك الشارد عن تاريخ الموارنة و المتنكر لمواقف بكركي التاريخية، هؤلاء الناس، من احزاب و اشخاص، هم قطعان من الغنم تخلوا عن إيمانهم و حريتهم و شهدائهم و تاريخيهم و كرامتهم و مضوا لكي يكونوا عبيداً لأشخاص. بولس الرسول قال: “لو أردت أن أساير مقامات الناس لما كنت عبداً للمسيح”. المسيح بذاته دخل الهيكل و حطّم و كسّر كل ما يفعله التجار المنافقين تحت راية الله. فأنت يا أيها المسيحي الماروني لا يمكنك أن تسكت و أن تماشي بطريرك يدافع عن المجرم في وجه المظلوم، يناقد مواقفه الف مرة في التصريح ذاته. إن كان حزبك يأمرك بمسايرته فبئس هكذا أوامر، انتفض لكرامتك و لشهدائك و قف في وجه هذا البطريرك المتكبّر و المتعجرف الذي لا يمت لنا نحن المسيحيين بأي صلة لا من قريب و لا من بعيد، بعد أن انضم لحزب البعث و أصبح خطابه لا يفرق كثيراً عن خطاب حافظ الأسد و وئام وهاب و ناصر قنديل و فايز شكر و كل هؤلاء المرتزقة الذين ذبحوا المسيحيين. المسيح و هو رب الاكوان تعذب و انهان و صلب ليشهد للحقيقة، لمذا بطريرك لا يكف عن الكذب و حماية الباطلين و الطغاة و المجرمين و الفاسدين؟ لا يستطيع البطريرك الراعي جرنا كالغنم وراءه، فنحن استشهدنا على مر التاريخ من أجل حريتنا و كرامتنا. الموارنة و تاريخهم و مواقفهم المشرفة هم بكركي و ليس فقط شخص البطريرك. هذا البطريرك وقع في تجارب إبليس، أما أنت أيها الماروني إن سكتت عن الممارسات و المواقف الخاطئة و المميتة فأنت شيطان أخرس… بئس الأحزاب و المقامات والأشخاص، انتفض فقط لكرامة و دماء شهدائك و خذ موقف مع الحق ضد الباطل و ليكن موقفك كما طلب منك السيد المسيح إبن الله الحي: “ليكن كلامك نعم نعم او لا لا”. و اتبعوا كلام بولس الرسول: “لو أردت أن أساير مقامات الناس لما كنت عبداً للمسيح”. الله اكبر من الجميع، القضية أكبر من الشخص و دم الشهداء اكبر من البطريرك
Fadman,
Thanks for this excellent blog.
What I would have hoped from our beloved Patriarch is to take the lead and ask other religious leaders to join him in allowing civil marriage in Lebanon, as well as criminalizing the abuse of women, and the dark ages behavior such as the crimes of honor (or passion?).
There is still too much hatred between communities. I will not go through the complex political factors such as the unfair advantage of some groups who are armed to the teeth. Instead we need to get rid of sectarianism first before we start discussing separation of religion and state.
I will take a rather simplistic approach. Allow civil marriage in Lebanon. Remove all the restrictions and threats on inter sects marriages and everything else will follow. When you have a whole generation growing up with families from different sects and communities, how would they have any hatred to the “other side”? Well there won’t be another side to hate, would there?
Again, maybe my approach is too simplistic but at this moment, I am not offered any better option.
So Dear Patriach al Rahi, before we make major statements that will get nowhere, please start working on the areas where you really can make a difference.
As much as the Lebanese enjoy an inexpensive vacation, I do believe the young couples would still rather get married in Lebanon amongst their friends and family instead of Cyprus.
I don’t get your reasoning, Rai can’t advocate a secular state because everyone else has not caught on yet? This makes no sense. He is speaking for himself, and for that matter many other leaders support that idea. Just because there is a transition phase to go through before a secular state in Lebanon, is not a reason to not start the transition! Saying: I can’t start the secular transition because I really want a secular state and I find it painful to transition into one (??!!). Some will resist the idea in Lebanon, at first, this is why BCR proposed proportional representation in the elections. It’s the equivalent of affirmative action in the US, it nudges people out of sectarianism, until they’re ready to be secular.
Hi “Lebanon89″,
The message I tried to convey was that I would have loved to hear something different to the usual marketing ritual. For example exposing a plan with one first pragmatic step he (as a patriarch not a person) can really take for his community…
Not that I expected much, it is now some statement in the past….
Nothing to say, when he was elected we thought that he will make a reconciliation between all Lebanese christian leaders and to create a new Lebanese front , but he took the boat to the horizon and no one can be safe from the Arab storm that will effect Lebanon in a negative way…